Is God They/Them? Church of England considers gender-neutral pronouns.

[quote]The Church of England is exploring whether to use gender-neutral language instead of referring to God solely with masculine pronouns, such as He or Our Father which would be a major change after millennia of prayer and teachings.

[quote]The Church of England is exploring whether to use gender-neutral language instead of referring to God solely with masculine pronouns, such as “He” or “Our Father” — which would be a major change after millennia of prayer and teachings.

[quote]The church is launching a project on “gendered language” this spring, following a years-long effort to study the ways in which God is referred to and addressed in liturgy and worship.

[...]

[quote]Members of that body, the General Synod, convened in London this week to debate and vote on major issues affecting the church, including a proposal to allow Anglican clergy to bless same-sex couples, while maintaining the church’s official position that marriage “is between one man and one woman for life.”

[quote]Amid heated debate on this issue, a vicar from southern England on Monday asked the vice chairman of the church’s Liturgical Commission, the Rev. Michael Ipgrave, whether he could “provide an update on the steps being taken to develop more inclusive language … to provide more options for those who wish to use authorized liturgy and speak of God in a non-gendered way, particularly in authorized absolutions where many of the prayers offered for use refer to God using male pronouns.”

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by Anonymousreply 104February 16, 2023 3:25 PM

God’ll get you for that, Walter.

by Anonymousreply 1February 8, 2023 11:38 PM

Here's a non-paywalled source:

[quote]It is currently unclear what would replace the term Our Father in the Lord’s Prayer, the central Christian prayer which Jesus Christ is said to have instructed his followers to say together down the generations.

[quote]Conservative critics have hit back at the possibility of changes, with the Rev Dr Ian Paul telling the Telegraph that they would represent an abandonment of the Church’s own doctrine.

[quote]He said: "The fact that God is called 'Father' can’t be substituted by 'Mother' without changing meaning, nor can it be gender-neutralised to 'Parent' without loss of meaning. Fathers and mothers are not interchangeable but relate to their offspring in different ways.

[quote]"If the liturgical commission seeks to change this, then in an important way they will be moving the doctrine of the Church away from being grounded in the scriptures."

I'm not religious but wtf? How do you de-gender the Bible?

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by Anonymousreply 2February 8, 2023 11:47 PM

Since God is spirit and not of this world, it really doesn't matter what pronoun is used. Ethereal beings don't have gender.

by Anonymousreply 3February 8, 2023 11:50 PM

This is going to get nasty 🍿

by Anonymousreply 4February 8, 2023 11:58 PM

Since God is a fairy tale, does it really matter?

by Anonymousreply 5February 9, 2023 12:00 AM

OP? Some churches use "Our Creator."

This isn't fucking rocket science.

by Anonymousreply 6February 9, 2023 12:04 AM

How ridiculous. God doesn't exist. End of story and discussion.

by Anonymousreply 7February 9, 2023 12:07 AM

If they decide to change it, doesn't that basically imply that substituting human ideology for god's word is acceptable?

Or, will they claim that it's god's will that the pronouns get changed and the vote (or however the decision was made) was the result of god's will?

by Anonymousreply 8February 9, 2023 12:45 AM

[quote]Some churches use "Our Creator." This isn't fucking rocket science.

R6, this isn't about "some churches," it's about the Church of England, and they say "Our Father."

I'm not religious, but re-writing scripture could open the door to re-writing other texts and documents. It would also alienate a lot of people, I can already see Republicans in the U.S. using this to get their base all riled up and gain new supporters.

by Anonymousreply 9February 9, 2023 12:46 AM

Our Fairy, which art in heaven, hallowed by thy name....

by Anonymousreply 10February 9, 2023 12:49 AM

Enough with this insanity already.

by Anonymousreply 11February 9, 2023 1:16 AM

Will King Charles III weigh in on this madness, since he's the head of the church? Unlikely.

by Anonymousreply 12February 9, 2023 1:17 AM

This is officially the final nail in the pronouns coffin. The religious zealots will not tolerate this, expect a severe backlash.

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by Anonymousreply 13February 9, 2023 1:25 AM

People who have pronouns don’t believe in God.

by Anonymousreply 14February 9, 2023 1:30 AM

Of course god has a dick. He raped Mary.

by Anonymousreply 15February 9, 2023 1:33 AM

Everyone "has" pronouns by default, r14

by Anonymousreply 16February 9, 2023 1:34 AM

r14 There are enough trans, non-binaries, pronouns-users who belong to (progressive?) church. Media recently featured one mtf Church of England priest?/pastor? who look like a green-long-haired ogre. There were news about ftm or non-binary or both he/they pastor in California, where significant percentage of church-goers seemed that kind or pronouns-using 'allies'.

Gender thing is their religion. These people need some religious doctrine to follow and some sense of belonging with other cultists. Then it's only natural that the next step for them would go to the established religions and try to trans it.

by Anonymousreply 17February 9, 2023 1:41 AM

One point I want to make about the Church of England which I find interesting. QEII didn't want her family to get a divorce since it was against the teaching of the Church of England. Why did the monarchy start the Church of England? Due to the King divorcing so why wouldn't QEII didn't let Charles divorce?? This will basically end the church I think.

by Anonymousreply 18February 9, 2023 1:42 AM

R16, you know what I mean. “Has their own pronouns.”

by Anonymousreply 19February 9, 2023 1:43 AM

All this does is show how ridiculous and man-made religion is in the first place.

by Anonymousreply 21February 9, 2023 1:47 AM

He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you've been bad or good...

by Anonymousreply 22February 9, 2023 1:48 AM

God watched as his child was slowly tortured to death. Father of the year.

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by Anonymousreply 24February 9, 2023 2:08 AM

Women have been fighting for nonsexist language in religion for generations. What did it take the genderweirdos? Two years? Guess it helps that the genderweirdos are a bunch straight white men.

Wonder what will happen when a Catholic priest wants to transition? They won't let women be priests but will also rightly know that a man cannot become a woman so the priest, in their eyes, would still be a man even if he's declaring himself female.

by Anonymousreply 25February 9, 2023 2:11 AM

I'm glad to be a Catholic.

by Anonymousreply 26February 9, 2023 2:15 AM

I think it's a way for them to stay relevant and gain followers. Gotta roll with the times. I don't think it has anything to do with trans bs. The idea of a creator neither being male or female or both at once makes sense in that mumbo jumbo land and will help eliminate the patriarchy in the future

by Anonymousreply 28February 9, 2023 2:21 AM

It doesn't matter if God exists. He is still male. Just as Zeus is male or Jesus was male or Santa is. But the push confirms what we know already: gender ideology is a religion and it won't tolerate any other gods before it.

by Anonymousreply 29February 9, 2023 2:57 AM

[quote] Women have been fighting for nonsexist language in religion for generations. What did it take the genderweirdos? Two years? Guess it helps that the [bold]genderweirdos are a bunch straight white men[/bold].

r25 Don't worry. You have enough of homosexual white women doing this in the US too. Here's your basic-dyke-looking one. Came out as 'gay' (homosexual) - meaning lesbian. Female spouse. Perfect conversion therapy success story. Now an ex-gay. Became a trans.

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by Anonymousreply 32February 9, 2023 3:15 AM

[quote] OP? Some churches use "Our Creator."

How many fucking times can you use that in place of He in a sermon?

by Anonymousreply 33February 9, 2023 4:30 AM

This is only going to end up hurting gays in the end. People are sick of the trans shit and equate it with the gay lobby.

by Anonymousreply 34February 9, 2023 4:31 AM

[quote] I think it's a way for them to stay relevant and gain followers.

It’s the Church of England, not the Catholic Church, luv. They’re not looking for more followers. They have an entire country behind them.

by Anonymousreply 35February 9, 2023 4:33 AM

R18, my cousin said that same thing years ago. It’s hilarious.

by Anonymousreply 36February 9, 2023 4:34 AM

Just say “The Almighty”. Works as a proper noun and a pronoun.

by Anonymousreply 37February 9, 2023 4:49 AM

The CoE is dead on the ground. No one attends and they are closing churches. The only attachment most people in England have to it is emotional. This will destroy even that. It’s so foolish and unpoetic. All versions of Christianity in the US are losing members but the progressive churches are losing them faster and more dramatically than traditional ones, the Episcopal Church (affiliated with the CoE) is one of the most progressive and one in deep decline. Religion needs to be poetic, transcendent and that is best captured by traditional expressions. I honestly don’t understand progressive Christians.

by Anonymousreply 38February 9, 2023 11:30 AM

Why can't these guys learn how to put on makeup? R30 looks like a child with a paintbox got hold of him.

by Anonymousreply 39February 9, 2023 11:52 AM

People with pantheistic views see the Jewish, Christian and Muslim God as an interpretation of the indescribable Cosmos. But suited to the local cultures which were misogynistic. The Tanach, The Bible and Quran were written by desert men and reflected their biases. A person with mystical and heterodox beliefs would reject the premise of a gendered God because there's no language adequately to describe a Creator deity. Religions reinforce cultural biases. It's natural Christianity is evolving to be more tolerant of women in leadership and gay and trans clergy. It's not going to survive either way if it doesn't adapt. Nonbinary people aren't the same as gay or trans, they reject a lot of tradition and order. Gay and trans people still like having structure and a community. Many NB aren't Native American who have a sacred tradition of two-spirit related to their own indigenous religions. NB are seeking attention often and like disrupting institutions.

by Anonymousreply 40February 9, 2023 11:52 AM

How dare they assume God's lack of gender!!?? Tge violence!!

by Anonymousreply 41February 9, 2023 11:59 AM

r39 Intentional. They get pleasure from imposing their most freakish looks as possible on others who might feel like getting eye-raped. Those others then go: yes, amen, brave and stunning, no?

by Anonymousreply 43February 9, 2023 12:28 PM

[quote] The Tanach, The Bible and Quran were written by desert men and reflected their biases

Uh, no. The laws and history in the Tanakh were written by/for a people who spoke gender-specific languages, Hebrew and Aramaic. The "origins and biases" of the writers were irrelevant.

by Anonymousreply 44February 9, 2023 1:39 PM

If you believe in the concept of the Trinity, a foundational concept of Christianity, then the Godhead is three people in one, thus “they” seems the most appropriate.

by Anonymousreply 45February 9, 2023 1:45 PM

Has R35 ever even been to England? There were already more practising Muslims than practising Anglicans in Britain twenty years ago and the gap has only grown since then.

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by Anonymousreply 47February 9, 2023 1:53 PM

[quote]They get pleasure from imposing their most freakish looks as possible on others who might feel like getting eye-raped. Those others then go: yes, amen, brave and stunning, no?

That must be it, because with the internet there's no excuse for not being able to apply eyeshadow. Yecch.

by Anonymousreply 48February 9, 2023 3:05 PM

[quote]the push confirms what we know already: gender ideology is a religion and it won't tolerate any other gods before it.

Pretty much.

by Anonymousreply 49February 9, 2023 8:06 PM

How is referring to a deity as "They/Them" gender ideology? Even Jews and Muslims see God as beyond human comprehensive and state the He pronoun is only there because Semitic languages are heavily gendered and the male pronoun is default. The image of God as a bearded man in the sky came from Christian artists influenced by Greek and Roman religious art and ripped off from Zeus/Jupiter. So this isn't a radical concept and Anglicans and other Protestants have tended to be more heterodox. Dogmatic Christians especially Evangelicals, Mormons and Catholic-Orthodox will see this as some heresy.

by Anonymousreply 50February 9, 2023 9:25 PM

Do they still fuck children in churches? Or is it just confined to Republican households?

by Anonymousreply 51February 10, 2023 12:05 AM

The church is patriarchal, males dominate and lord their status over women while quoting nonsense from the Bible about men being the head of the household.

Anyone who thinks churches like the catholic or Mormons will be ok with changing pronouns is deliberately obtuse.

by Anonymousreply 52February 10, 2023 1:11 AM

R50, it's the timing of it.

by Anonymousreply 53February 10, 2023 5:11 AM

R38

Meanwhile evangelical Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds. Making huge inroads even in Latin American countries where RC was once the dominate religion.

At least current and previous pope were sat down and warned that moving RC church to loosen things up would backfire. They point to Episcopal Church , Lutherans and others who have gone down that road and are hemorrhaging members, closing churches, and so on.

by Anonymousreply 54February 10, 2023 5:18 AM

C of E just voted to allow blessings of same sex marriages.

Heads are exploding across the shires...

Just in time for coronation of Charles III. As head of C of E one wonders how much if any input the monarch had on this matter and or if HM is pleased.

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by Anonymousreply 55February 10, 2023 5:20 AM

What is the draw of becoming evangelicals? Is it a sheep thing? They just like being told exactly what to think and do? They like to pretend they are "the chosen" to be able to look down on eveyrone else?

by Anonymousreply 56February 10, 2023 5:22 AM

According to this site, protestantism has declined substantially, Catholicism has remained fairly constant, and the percentage affiliating with no religion have experienced the most growth. In the US at least.

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by Anonymousreply 57February 10, 2023 5:27 AM

For a while the evangelicals were growing while the mainline (Methodist Presbyterian Episcopal) were rapidly declining.

Now the evangelicals are following them in decline - YAY! May it continue.

I'm sad about evangelicals capturing so many Latin Americans. And they've tried in eastern Europe and Russia but I don't think they've managed diddly squat over there and now I imagine their Euro missions will end.

I remember being in a Presbyterian of America (the racist backward one) and there was a brochure in the foyer or whatever advertizing a fucking mission trip to IRELAND where, would you believe, over 90% had not accepted Jesus as their personal savior (the right way). A friend was a nun and she said she was accosted by a Jesus freak in the 1970s while wearing a habit - the nut tried to explain that Jesus doesn't get in your heart through the Catholic church, you had to, oh I don't know, have a hillbilly hallucination or something.

(I was there to watch a play that a friend's child was performing in - ludicrous place)

by Anonymousreply 58February 10, 2023 5:33 AM

[quote]R9 It would also alienate a lot of people [within the church]

Isn’t that the best thing that could happen to them?

The sooner they learn to stand on their own two feet without the “guidance” of some invisible sky fairy the better.

by Anonymousreply 59February 10, 2023 5:52 AM

Grifters grifting in leaps and bounds. The second oldest profession.

by Anonymousreply 60February 10, 2023 5:55 AM

Does this count as Drag Queen Storytime?

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by Anonymousreply 63February 10, 2023 6:04 AM

R34

Likely won't really affect much if at all. C of E weekly service attendance in UK has been steadily dropping for years. Only about one-third British identify as Christian so there's that as well.

What will probably happen is a bit of a rush from certain gays to have their unions blessed just because.

OTOH there has been considerable noise about a schism within the Anglican church. Many of the more conservative congregations (such as in USA) weren't having much of went on prior and this latest action may be the last straw.

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by Anonymousreply 64February 10, 2023 6:09 AM

Britain 2021 -- 6.5% Muslim.

Don't know how much that number is changing now but in 2011 it was 4.9%.

Does anybody know if Muslims are losing their religion at the same rate as Christians? (In 2017, only 1.1% of USA was Muslim)

Now I'll brace myself for islamaphobia accusations -- I hate all religions equally.

by Anonymousreply 65February 10, 2023 6:34 AM

r63 I'm not religious but appreciate beauty. At least that style is beautiful, unlike the off-putting freaky styles of drag q storytellers.

by Anonymousreply 66February 10, 2023 7:00 AM

What a lovely gown. Sewn together by the tiny hands of little boys with ripped up rectums.

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by Anonymousreply 67February 10, 2023 7:05 AM

Muslims' most powerful expansion weapons = Breeding (also some of their own word). It's not an Islamophobic word when we use the word, breeder, all the time to refer to white heteros.

Some ex-Muslims (-), some assimilated Muslims who have 1-2 children (- or 0) <<<<<<<< other Muslims who pop out 4-8+ children (++++++++), some white and black converts.

by Anonymousreply 68February 10, 2023 7:09 AM

But Muslim breeding stock is all funky because of all the cousin-fucking. Many of their mongs will be sterile.

by Anonymousreply 69February 10, 2023 7:12 AM

[quote] will be sterile.

That won't stop them fornicating.

The British government will keep paying for them regardless of their usefulness — or uselessness.

by Anonymousreply 70February 10, 2023 7:22 AM

Islam will continue to grow as long as the women in Islam are treated as chattel. I'm not sure where it was but a few years ago I read that the breaking point for Muslim's starting to have a huge impact on society is 3-5% or so. That's when they start getting political representation in great enough numbers to start pulling as much Sharia law bullshit as they can. Look at the map and list on the right of the linked page and you'll see that the countries in Europe currently having the most issues with Muslim imposition of their religion are the ones in the 5-10% range. Those with higher percentages are already fucked.

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by Anonymousreply 71February 10, 2023 7:25 AM

Followers of Islam (Muslims) do a better job of retaining active members or whatever than say Catholics and most Protestant sects.

Those born into Muslim families are more likely to remain, marry and raise their children as such which is key to their growth.

Muslim population is growing in France, Germany, UK, Italy and really over much of western Europe. That trend is expected to continue even if migration (legal or otherwise) is curtailed or out right stopped.

Melting pot that is France has been simmering over the Muslim question. While there have been flare ups sooner or later things are going to come to a very nasty head. Huge part of the increase in birthrates for that country is coming from Muslims. That is not expected to change due to value that group places on having children.

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by Anonymousreply 72February 10, 2023 7:29 AM

R72, all of that is due to the treatment of women. All of it.

by Anonymousreply 73February 10, 2023 7:35 AM

They keep their followers because questioning is forbidden. There will never be a moderate/reform Islamic movement

by Anonymousreply 74February 10, 2023 8:05 AM

women have been saying g-d is a woman for centuries... it seems about time.

of course, the CoE also reinstated a neonazi that continues to spread conspiracy theories from his pulpit and would also like to ban sharp knives.

r74 Yet there is one. . . and there are many places where they have integrated, and although a minority within a minority in the largely western nations they reside in.. they exist both on the right and the left. The conflict comes in examining those earlier immigrants vs those of the last twenty to forty years, give or take.. as to what those differences were. It's been difficult for govts to listen to refugees turned citizens and instead pushed by moral and sociopolitical incentives instead to embrace the most fundamental because viewing them as an underdog. . . in need of help from western imperialism, guilt over the past that led to an uprising of warlord tribalism.

by Anonymousreply 75February 10, 2023 8:15 AM

^ Zudhi Jasser and Qanta Ahmed would be two figures you might have heard of on the right.

by Anonymousreply 77February 10, 2023 8:19 AM

Has the magic sky god stopped fucking mass numbers of children through his followers in the Catholic Church?

by Anonymousreply 78February 10, 2023 8:57 AM

One Muslim family can have, let's say, ten Muslim members. That is, if the father just has one wife. It's not uncommon that some have multiple wives who have that many children each.

Anyway I see many "BIPOC LGBTQ+ Muslims", including "they/them" Muslim queers in heterosexual relationships. Does any of them claim that their Allah is they/them or their Allah is transgender?

Christianity seems to produce enough of these people. Like, Rev Dr Michael Banner (theologian), the Dean of Trinity College, Cambridge: "For myself, I think that speculation (Jesus being trans) was legitimate"

by Anonymousreply 79February 10, 2023 9:03 AM

If ten Muslims are traveling North, from Istanbul to Pakistan by pachyderm, and twelve Christians are traveling South by mule from Moscow to Minsk, how many knives to they take to slash newborn boys' dicks and little girls' clits?

by Anonymousreply 80February 10, 2023 9:13 AM

I’m kind of eh on the existence of a God, but I think it’s safe to say Mohammed and Jesus were both guys you’d avoid if you met them now

by Anonymousreply 81February 10, 2023 9:37 AM

r81 one flies on a magical horse and the other while having a tendency to scream at figs... can turn water into wine. I'll setup the former with one of the Kardashian spawn and take the latter on tour of the real house wives.

by Anonymousreply 82February 10, 2023 9:45 AM

White Protestants and now Catholics across Europe and USA have been committing racial, class or whatever you want to call it genocide for decades now. All across Europe and much of North America white females are simply not having babies like they used to.

For a group to survive each female needs to produce at least three offspring on average; two to replace each parent and one extra. It's rare to find females or families (white) in much of western Europe with three or more kids.

Meanwhile Muslims (who come in all sorts by the way such as from Albania or Turkey) place high value on having lots of children.

by Anonymousreply 83February 12, 2023 2:04 PM

You know it's all going to come down to, none of us will have gender specific pronouns any more. We have people living under bridges but that's not important right now. PRONOUNS are what really matter.

by Anonymousreply 84February 12, 2023 2:59 PM

CoE is actually quite conservative when compared to US mainline churches (all of which fought this stuff out years ago and have split apart already).

by Anonymousreply 85February 12, 2023 3:05 PM

The last two or three generation of the Church of England leadership have found all that Bible stuff a nuisance and generally a downer

by Anonymousreply 86February 12, 2023 3:17 PM

If these unwieldy number of gender pronouns make people upset and confused, maybe we should just replace them all with only one word, 'comrade.'

We'd all be equal then!

by Anonymousreply 87February 12, 2023 7:16 PM

Christians were working on gender neutral language in scripture about 40 years ago.

by Anonymousreply 88February 12, 2023 7:37 PM

R87 I prefer comrade to wage slave.

by Anonymousreply 89February 12, 2023 7:44 PM

More fallout..

This latest move by Church of England isn't going down well with worldwide Anglican community, this includes Africa.

Now for those who say "who cares?" both RC and Anglican faiths have seen large inroads and gains from Africa. Indeed much of new priests and other religious are coming from that continent. Issue for both churches is on whole Africans seem to have a much more conservative trend and this includes their religions. This is becoming more and more important as across Europe, North America and now even Latin America both RC and many Protestant faiths are losing ground.

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by Anonymousreply 90February 14, 2023 10:31 AM

Knives are out; the Most Rev. Justin Welby watch your back!

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by Anonymousreply 91February 14, 2023 10:38 AM

^Am not a Christian, but must admit those magenta vestments are faBU.

by Anonymousreply 92February 14, 2023 12:41 PM

What other posters have said: this has been going on in American churches, anyway, for a couple of generations (I can remember my grandmother scoffing at gender-neutral language in the service when I was a kid in the 70s). It long predates the "non-binary" movement. And unless I'm missing something, the article doesn't say anything about rewriting or retranslating the bible; it's about liturgy and the like.

by Anonymousreply 93February 14, 2023 12:48 PM

This seems all very odd since it was largely at insistence of C of E that certain limits were placed upon SSM when it became law in GB.

Queen consort is still reserved for natural female married to a male king.

Princess of Wales can only be a natural female married to a Prince of Wales.

HM as defender of the faith and monarch surely was advised of latest changes by C of E and likely gave his advice. Given liberal bent of HM and Prince of Wales one would assume both are in favor of such changes, but will there be more one wonders.

There has been great noise about giving spouses of titled gay males same rights as female to be "endowed with all their husband's worldly goods" so to speak (read titles, rank and styles). Daughters of peers are also pushing for changes as well.

by Anonymousreply 94February 14, 2023 1:02 PM

It doesn't matter what these delusional fucks do, they're dying out anyway. Religion is for the retarded.

by Anonymousreply 95February 14, 2023 7:17 PM

Since he doesn’t exist, he can be anything you want him to be.

by Anonymousreply 96February 14, 2023 7:43 PM

An Anglican priest shares his views on current brouhaha.

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by Anonymousreply 97February 16, 2023 8:47 AM

Calvin Robinson breaks everything down..

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by Anonymousreply 98February 16, 2023 8:50 AM

Calvin Robinson is very conservative and was denied ordination for his views in the CoE. He was subsequently ordained a deacon in the small breakaway denomination, the Free Church of England which is, of course, more traditional. He’s biracial and a Tory.

by Anonymousreply 99February 16, 2023 10:40 AM

Church of England, previously run by zealots now bending to the will of zealots who never set foot inside a church.

Can't imagine Islam being so accommodating to the purple haired, non-binary SJWs.

by Anonymousreply 100February 16, 2023 11:05 AM

This only makes logical sense. God isn't gendered since They aren't human and are actually three-in-one.

In Genesis, God refers to themself as "us". The rationalization for that being that they're referring to themselves as the Trinity.

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by Anonymousreply 101February 16, 2023 11:11 AM

Archbishop of Canterbury is mentally unstable. He turned to religion AFTER the death of his daughter. Religion is a crutch to him, not a lifelong calling. The mental cunt worked in business before joining the cloth.

by Anonymousreply 102February 16, 2023 11:25 AM

Very old but it’s been going on forever.

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by Anonymousreply 103February 16, 2023 12:49 PM

[quote] Can't imagine Islam being so accommodating to the purple haired, non-binary SJWs.

r100 Islam doesn't need to do such thing at all because the undesirable don't dare, to begin with.

by Anonymousreply 104February 16, 2023 3:25 PM

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